LdyGry is most definitely right about these morals being a new thing. Hammurabi's Code, often considered the first system of laws, was basically "an eye for an eye", and quite literally at that. People have always thought about right and wrong, but we are always rewriting the definitions.
And in Shinto tradition, the indigenous religion of Japan (I always manage to drag Japan in somehow lol), it is perfectly permissible to wish harm on someone else as long as the harm is justified (I guess the gods decide that?). If it isn't justified then the harm will come to you instead.
I don't believe in hurting people just because. You have to have a reason and a pretty good one at that. Of course there will always be the few people who start the chain of hexing and ill will, because as I am very well aware, the world is not made up entirely of peaceful and benevolent beings. I prefer protection, defensive magick, to offensive magick, but I'm not going to allow myself to be a punching bag. If I have to 'fight back', I will, but I enjoy the struggle of rising above it more than playing in the mud. This is just the way I see things.
I am very interested in the darker side of magick, but there is a very clear difference between those seeking to be petty, menacing brats (to put it nicely) and those who can responsibly handle their actions and think things through from a point of education, wisdom, and faith. I'm not pointing any fingers, but I know that anyone who isn't even of age to drive, vote, or drink can possibly have had enough learning and experience to boast about their 'dark powers' as I have seen.
I also read an interesting snippet in a book about Balinese masked theatre, about how the Balinese (who are still a very rural and old-world type people) don't focus on good or evil, but rather on keeping the balance and ensuring that neither get the upper hand. Without equilibrium we would end up in very chaotic states.
thats why i made a witch bottle-if anyone tries to hex me it will come back on them, thats how you deal it. my witch bottle is a mason jar i can seal, seasalt, nails, pins, brokenglass, a clove of garlic, you can add some of your blood or urine- you seal it and bury it on your property or hide it in your home.
Serpent, you are missing the point of my post, as your statement "wrong is wrong, right is right" shows. As for there being morals and values we must adhere to, my morals are very different to yours, and whilst I believe I should follow my own, I am not going to follow yours merely because you think they are right. And why would a statement pointing out that neither of these human ideologies really exist be trying to pacify that which it has stated are non-existent?
Demen, now you're just repeating what you've said. Did you not read my response? This is not purely an argument of morals; it is a debate about irresponsible use of magick for petty high school quarrels. Don't get me wrong, I often argue with myself and others whether good and bad truly exist, and the only solution I have come up with is that good is to do what makes you feel good, and the same goes for bad.
I have seen a lot of witches, shamans, hoodoo practitioners and other people get angry at someone and scream about how they are going to curse someone or hex them. First off, I believe that magick/whatever you call it should only be used to help people and for the general pursuit of good.
I do make exceptions to this rule. Every once in awhile there is time for action.
but Don't fall into the habit of thinking everytime something goes wrong it has to be a curse, eventually you will end up cursing yourself.
Keep a positive mind and outlook. Just 'know' that things will ultimately turn out ok.
Well demen i see you have some problems understanding the real problem, its not about adhering to my rules or the case, morality is a new thing in magick because in ancient times magick was the same as prayer, and there fore wicked actions were not thought of being done in magick how ever over the years modern man have been using magick for their own desires IN CONJUNCTION OF HURTING ANOTHER PERSON. There is nothing wrong with using magick for your own purpose, but being done with correct values. However as everyone is saying it is using irresponsible
I agree with serpent. While in ancient times, it may or may not have been common practice to curse those who have offended you or you did not like, we are a different society now. Would you not get in trouble for throwing rocks at someone for the fun of it, or shooting someone in the leg just to see how they would react. We are a society of law, and of keeping order to avoid anarchy. Bounderies, just like in society, should be respected in magick to prevent all out wars, deaths, and unjustified cursing, hexing, etc. We should not think ourselves above another because of our knowledge of the craft, and we should not act so. How many times are rich people looked upon as abusers of power because of what they do with resources. If we condemn the rich who use their money to become a tyrant over those around them, then by simple conclusion...we should do the same with those with magick.
As for those being young using it irresponsibly, do we not take away the licence of those driving drunk or too fast? Do we not arrest those who use drugs just because they can. Without a limit or boundry, then the world will spiral into ruin. I, for one, stand against such a thing happening.
If you believe as I do, then I sorely want to talk with you.
What Demen said would be more like your own morals AND perspective.
For example.
My morals tell me not to kill anyone.
But I step on ants, because I don't like them in my house.
Person B's morals says not to kill anything, therefore they are vegetarians.
From Person B's perspective, I'm an evil murderer.
From Person C's perspective, I'm a good guy, cause he/she doesn't like ants crawling around in their house either.
"There is nothing wrong with using magick for your own purpose, but being done with correct values." - Serpentfire
Who's correct values?
Who defines those correct values?
Are mine different to yours?
If you understand that magic has no colour, then why can't you even tell the difference between evil and good?
The Salem Witch Trials were powered by Christian/Catholic Beliefs (no offence), and there was no fair trial of "Innocent until proven Guilty."
I don't care about those misusing magic. Karma will repay them in kind.
I see your point, but at the same time, if an innocent bystander is hurt or maimed in the process, then it is to be brought into question. If you walk up to a cashier at a store, and slice there arm open with a knife, will you not get arrested? It doesn't matter your personal view on the matter at that point. Those laws aren't to make you see things a certain way, but to keep innocent people from getting affected by the actions of another in a negative way. Magick, in itself, has not, nor will ever have a clear line, but using common sense and understanding your not god just because you can do something is paramount in maintaining the balance between using magick for yourself, and using magick irresponsibly just because you can. That, I believe, can only be done if those who see this injustice being done to others step up and stop it.
Also, on the note of people potentially being considered illadvised, or wayward in their determination to keep the balance and protect the innocent, would that not fall into the same form of persecution that some are now protesting? Just like they have the right to do what they want, and it shall always remain their choice, so should we have a choice to stop their spells to protect the innocent. We are not saying that they shoudln't be able to do that, just that those who see it as wrong to affect the innocent for fun, or just because you can, should be monitered and held in check when it goes to far. Just like what the order of Knights of the Moon does.
