The "old ways" non wiccan

Lumpino, I agree with Brysing. The information on those sites, particularly from the older books, deals with ceremonial magic, not with Witchcraft. And much of the other information on those sites is about Wicca. While Wiccans do practice Witchcraft, Wicca is a religion while Witchcraft is not.

And I would disagree with the writings on the website you offered claiming that Witchcraft originated in ancient Sumer and Babylonia. Just because people of those cultures engaged in magical practices did not make what they were doing witchcraft. In fact I expect they would have been shocked and horrified to hear their practices called that. Certainly many ancient cultures practiced forms of magic, but that does not mean that what they were doing was witchcraft. Remember that not everything on the web is accurate.

An excellent book that discusses the roots of modern Wicca is " Triumph of the Moon " by Ronald Hutton. While the book is on Wicca, Hutton also talks at length about what is known about traditional witchcraft in the British Isles to separate witchcraft from Wiccan religion. That book, at least, has reliable information.

Another book I think the asker will find most interesting is "The Visions of Isobel Gowdie: Magic, Witchcraft and Dark Shamanism in Seventeenth-Century Scotland" by Emma Wilby. The book, although very dry and academic in nature, gives a fascinating look into the life of the self-confessed Scottish witch, Isobel Gowdie. When I say self-confessed, I mean she confessed to the practice of witchcraft, going very deep into what her and her coven did, all without the use of torture or force. Although the folklore she gave was moderately inconsistent with the area, other co festoons spoke of similar happenings, despite being hundreds of miles away. It's definitely something worth looking into.

Heka (often equated to ancient Egyptian magic) could not be divorced from the religion of Kemet itself.

Ancient people of Kemet (Egyptians) themselves didn't even have a word to describe their religion, because the religion was present in every and all ways. Whilst periods of doubt existed, particularly when times were in unrest and there was either no Nisut-bity (pharaoh) or more than one, they never abandoned their beliefs, nor divorced them from their medical or magical works.

At least in this one place heka, science, religion, and medicine are interdependent upon each other and attempts by the atheistic and Christian Egyptologists of the modern era to divorce them have been shoddy at best. The priest (with the right training) could be an astronomist (they did careful observations/calculations of the stars and counted the Hours of the night), a hekau/magician (the particular House of Life for their local temple Netjer lent particular learnings/writings on heka), a funeral director (sem priests in particular were overseers and/or participators), a surgeon (priests of Sekhmet were particularly known for their success with this), or anything else. Generally only priests of large temple complexes (like those of Amun in Thebes) alloted the priest to only have one or two duties. Priests of much smaller, local complexes had multiple job duties as usually there were only a few of them in these temples.

~

However, I do not consider that witchcraft. Witchcraft to me is practiced by a witch; a witch being someone with in born natural abilities which allow them to use magic without needing spells, rituals, or anything else. Specifically these two terms come out of England, and therefore do not necessary apply to those outside of England.

I agree with Lark and Brysing, witchcraft doesn't have a set belief nor is it supernatural, religions try to imply an element of supernatural beliefs into itself, one doesn't need a religion to teach them of witchcraft. True 'magic' isn't about belief, if you believe religious supernatural things are real that shouldn't affect witchcraft, merely your definition of what magic is, choose your own path, then follow it.

@ Brysing ..those texts are not about witchcraft!


Those texs are often about witchcraft.

See for example on page http://www.esotericarchives.com/
Classical magic texts (aka Grimoires)
Arbatel of Magic
Abramelin, Book of the Sacred Magic
Ars Notoria
Key of Solomon
and many others........

Or on http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/index.htm
Grimoires

and some othes. .................

I think somebody sometimes commented books which he had never read.

You just don't get it, Lumpino, do you? You continue to argue that you are correct, no matter what anybody else says. Just because a book contains the word "witchcraft" a few times does not mean that the book is about witchcraft.All the books you mention are about "beliefs".In fact, almost every post you have written has been about "beliefs". I have pointed out to you, a number of times, that you often write about beliefs as though they are fact.
So, let's have a real Fact! Witchcraft is an English word; it cannot have been written by Solomon, or anybody else from "the East".

All of the books you mention are on ceremonial magic, not witchcraft.

Lumpino, while I understand why you would include such texts, I can assure you they don't fall under the category of witchcraft. Ceremonial magic and witchcraft are fairly different. At it's most basic point, witchcraft is just straight up easier than ceremonial magic. With Ceremonial Magic, you have to prepare for HOURS, and in some cases start planning days and weeks in advanced. However, with witchcraft, magic can be spur of the moment. It is not bound by phases of the moon or proper colors worn at the proper hour, or tools. The most effective spell I've ever worked included a bag leaf and a bowl of isopropyl alcohol. I wrote down what I wanted on the bay leaf, lit it on fire, and dropped it into the alcohol, which naturally lit as well. I kid you not, I saw results the next day.

However, I stand with you in that Witchcraft does come with certain beliefs based on the tradition you follow. I view witchcraft, myself, as a spirituality as well as practice.

Maybe there are some differences. But sometimes there are similarities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft
For example demonology and similar practices are calculated as a witchcraft and as a ceremonial magic too.

Lumpino, Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source of information. In fact many of the sources you cite to "prove" that you're right and others are wrong are not trustworthy sources. Just because it's on the internet does not make it credible.

Personally I think that you should stop arguing with people who have been studying and practicing Witchcraft longer than you've been alive. It's rude and it simply shows how little you truly know. Learn from folks like Brysing and Dakota who are long-time practitioners of the craft.