Wicca is Hip?

*shakes head* the things i've heard... just got to ignore it.

i don't get why people join religions out of trend, or because it sounds cool. i wish there was some way of showing them, it's a belief system and it's to be taken seriously [with levity, but you know] and not a hobby or something to do because your friends are. but hey, that's the teen years... most years...

Not all tendies are teens and not all teens are trendies. I'm a teen and I've been interested in magick since childhood and sctually did proper research, and I like to think that I'm not a trendy.

I believe that some teens think that telling their parents that they want to be wiccan is basically a slap in the face to their christian (or catholic) parents. That is not my reason for wanting to become wiccan, though. I love nature. I love reading about the gods and goddesses. I believe that if I dedicate myself enough to researching and practicing grounding, meditation, and the history of wicca, I could be a wiccan myself. Of course, my dad would not be happy about me doing all this research and learning, but I believe that it is the right path for me. Not because it's "hip, cool, dope, tight", but because I want to embrace my love for nature and mythology in a religious way.

It's interesting and somewhat ironic to see this here in this generation of witches. When Gardner first started writing and interviewing about Wicca, it was an Oathbound, Initiatory Mystery Religion. If you wanted to be a Wiccan, you had to find a lineaged, valid coven and work towards Initiation. And that would take a year and a day minimum. And you had to prove yourself to very well respected Elders to do so.

Then Scott Cunningham and his generation started writing about Do-It-Yourself Wicca - whatever folks wanted it to be, self-dedicate and start your own coven! They replaced the Gods of the Wica, threw in a bunch of New Age stuff that has nothing to do with the Craft and now everyone's a Lady and Lord, without any training, Initiation or lineage. And they demand respect they haven't earned.

Folks like myself who are Initiates find this all incredibly alarming. We don't initiate children, we don't let just anyone in. We call them Neo-Wiccans and hope that one day they will come looking for the real thing. Or lose interest and go onto something else. The only way to separate ourselves (Gardnerians, Alexandrians, Central Valley Wiccans, etc.) is to call ourselves British Traditional Wiccans and work hard to hold the core of the Wica as cherished as our ancestors did.

So yes, ironic to see the Neo-Wiccans so concerned about the next generation's abuse and misuse of Wicca.

So when you're concerned about Wicca becoming hip please understand that there's folks generations before you who've already gone through this dilution before.

What an interesting post....

Yes, there *are* self-initiated Wiccans who assume the titles 'Lord' and 'Lady' without having (apparently) undergone any training or study. However, there are also *many* self-initiates who are working hard to further the cause and the reputation of the Craft. Are you *really* going to denigrate and designate as worthless all of that work?

You might like to refer to 'Progressive Witchcraft' by Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone, who state that one of the shortcomings of the 'old' (for that is what it now is) insistence on lineage was a generation of Wiccans who were initiated *before* training (because this is what the oaths demanded, and continue to demand), resulting in a large number of 'first degree' Wiccans who had (and presumably have) no idea what to do, and who were then left to 'get on with it' and to learn by observation.

You refer to a generation as having read Scott Cunningham who, you say, advocated 'initiate yourself, start your own coven' Wicca. Could you please clarify how you come to this conclusion, given that his first and best selling book is titled 'Wicca, a Guide for the Solitary Practitioner'? And could you please at least have the academic courtesy to post at least one reference from Cunningham's work where you see him advocating this?

We notice that your recommended reading list includes 'The Witches' Bible' by Jane and Stewart Farrar, who themselves, as presumably among your 'very well respected elders', advocate those wishing to follow the craft to self initiate *and* to form their own covens if they are unable to find one (in 'The Witches' Way'). Could you please clarify how you square this with your comments here?

As regards your comments about lineage only being valid if it can be traced back to the 'very well respected elders' of Gardner's day (or soon after), presumably you mean either Gardner himself, who, it is now reported, initiated many people without any training at all in order to provide impetus to the early days of the Craft, or Alex Sanders, whom, it is said, would initiate anyone who came to him for the price of a pint in his local pub (bar).

Self-initiates who work and study hard to further their ability to properly represent the Craft they love and the Way they have chosen will rightly conclude that your post is without either academic or historical foundation, self-important, and, most of all, deeply insulting to those self-initiates. We freely admit that there are 'fluffy' people calling themselves initiates, and worse than that, a new generation drawing their ideas about the Craft from film and television rather than from solid authorities such as Gardner, the Farrars, Cunningham, Penczak etc. However, it doesn't help what is already a minority faith for you to discard the efforts of those who choose to walk a more solitary path, or who are genuinely unable to find a group to be part of.

Maybe you haven't before met a self-initiate who is able and willing to give a defence of their choices. You have now.

We look forward to your comments.

Myrddin and Rowan
Two self-initiates working hard to further the cause of the Craft in the South West of England.

Well put Noe, I don't think I've ever read a better written post defending anything that also has the facts to back it up.

Too much of today's witches, wiccans, pagans and alike either do it for the trend or learn it from a book. Now I'm not saying books aren't a good way to learn, they're just not the authoritive on the subject(like you said).

There is one exception though, and this is only a personal opinion on the matter. One book that I have read(and continue to read) is the "Grimoire for the Apprentice Wizard" by Oberon, in which near the begining there is a self dedication for the apprentice wizard. Now the only reason I feel this dedication is valid is for a few reasons.

1. First it is brought about from Oberon and the Council of Wizards(people who have been practicing for a long time and are very imformative on the matter, also founders of Grey School, a well respected online school.)

2. The self dedication is(I feel) more to one self rather then to the group. So instead of saying your part of the group and learn, know, and teach their ways, your learning, knowing, and growing yourself and your personal skills and about yourself so that you improve who you are and what you do.(This might sound a bit stange and not make a lot of sense at the moment, feel free to mail me and ill try to explain better.)

3. And lastly, it puts the emphisous on the individual to go out and learn, seek, and find their own path and their own meaning of truth and the validity of what they read or is told to them, rather then take it at face value and be spoon fed. This I find to be most important because instead of just being told what to do or how to do it you learn to question things and why they are. And by questioning things and learning from them, you free yourself from being a mindless droid(which we all know there's too many of those around in the magickal community.)

So ya, theres my two cents for the night :),
Glim

Glim,

Thank you. I've been around the occult community for a long time and have seen all these arguments and watch them fail, one by one.

I can't imagine anyone having an issue with self-dedication.

For instance, Wiccan covens often require an Outer Grove student to undergo their own as a sort of Seeker to Dedicant Rite of Passage. During Initiation, they will be introduced to the Gods of the Wica and made a Priest or Priestess. Since Wicca is orthopraxic, this is required to become one of the Wica.

Bless,
Noe

One thing that has always troubled me, and is good proof of how things have changed, is the fact that people these days see wicca and witches as one and the same. THEY'RE NOT

Wicca is a religion, witchcraft is just that a craft. So for those saying their wicca when really they're witches, it only degenerates wicca and its meaning. Most wiccans might consider themselves witches, but a witch does not have to be wiccan.

Now I haven't read the book "Progressive Witchcraft", but the fact that it says witchcraft would suggest that it is a book about witchcraft(obviously) and not an authoritive book on wicca. If you want one about wicca, why not try "Wicca for Beginners by Thea Sabin", that is a book focused on Wicca and not witchcraft.

Glim

Interesting distinction, Glim, and one which we make ourselves - although we consider ourselves *both* witches *and* Wiccans. I do think that the Farrar/Bone book, whilst titled Progressive Witchcraft, tends to deal with issues which would be of interest and importance to both.

Thanks again for the observation

Myrddin

thih thread has been locked. this was a good informational thread that has become a mudslinging fest.