The interval of fluff/fiction

There's the peer corroborated personal gnosis and unverified personal gnosis which is explained in more detail in another post by Personified. When working with crystals for example, there is the common and collective knowledge of what a certain crystal can do/effect and then there is the personal perspective. Quartz is amazing to soak up energy, but if you feel onyx works better for you, use onyx. That's the best example I can think of, UK 33.

Actually my original question was more about the interval of fluff/fiction. Where can the line be drawn? And it seemed like a question(atleast to me) not a 'confusion'. It was not about UPG or whatever, though I do think the article is good. Thank you to those who tried to stick to the original question, good responses.

How does the explanation of UPG not address the question?

What it comes down to is this; results. The interval of fluff to effectiveness lies in results. If crystal a and candle z and these words open you u and you send a message to the universe and get results that are verifiable ...at least to some extent...you have manifested your desire, then there you go.

If youre diligent in your work and keep records (grimoire, journaling whatever) you can go back and see what brought results and figure out what didnt.

There is a line though that crosses over into delusion at worst, or the realization that the odds just werent in your favor enough.

Beyond results, everything else is semantics.

What do you think?

For what its worth this is onwe of the better threads ive seen in awhile...

~Thor

UPG directly answers your question about where some lines exist between fact and fiction. You wrote: "Mrs.Kaos so what if from an incense I experience something different from you? Am I still allowed to write my experience down? Also do comment on the fact that the names of the gods have not yet been confirmed. That is absolutely true and was an important factor in my response." You asked this specific question and the matter of UPG/PCPG directly answers this question. So yes, we were addressing what you asked.

Well 'in a sense' it does address the question. But only up to this point: Do not judge people based on what they claim is their experience. There is s possibility it might be true. You see I might be wrong but that is how I see the article. And I guess the example of associating crystals with human emotions falls under the UPG. If an individual goes on to say crystals can not be associated with human emotions are they wrong? In other words can we say crystal magick is the same as vampire magick? As all claims around both fields can not be verified. But I am not that individual. I think there is a possibility that some 'crystal magick' claims could be true to the one making them. So like you I did not judge but I am aware such claims could also not be accurate, even to the one who made them (keep coincidences in mind). But I don't judge at all. And I think also the article did not judge at that point. So I want you to judge. Persona do you say crystals have the ability to trigger for example human emotions? If you do how would you confirm this to someone who says 'these are merely inorganic stones and can not 'trigger' any emotions, all your experiences were coincidences'. I feel I should clarify that I am not the one who says these things, I remain neutral around this question.

I tried to address the idea of where the line can be effectively drawn in my last post as well, but considering the length of it I guess it might have gotten lost in the shuffle. (I do tend to get wordy). so i will try to summ up how I try to measure the relative 'fluffyness' of any information i encounter.

1) When talking about intents of physical changes, Does the intended goal exist within the physical realm of reality? Magic can only assist in what is already within the physical capabilities of the person/their body.

2) magic and energy works with cycles and processes that already exist, and effects change through internal means like increasing internal and external awareness, tuning in to guidance from intuition, and becoming more aware of the meanings of outside events to create opportunities of choice and action.

3) barring everything else, is the information/magic geared towards moving towards Self betterment, or does it provide excuses to avoid the responsibilities of personal growth? (IE is it a tool or is it an escape.)

Each individual event of making a decision between fluff/not fluff requires its own evaluation taking in to account not only the information itself but the context and level of operation for that information, and the end goal and intent/action of that information in use. There is no hard and fast rule, it is a big huge grey area that can only be evaluated on a case-by-case level.

Hi spirit75. I read your previous response and the latest one as well. I replied to your previous response. I think my response was good. All in all it turns out the answers given so far do not go past the UPG. Though you acknowledge that it can be evaluated case-by-case you still haven't given out your judgement on the crystal magick example.

I suppose the trick with physical things like crystals, athames, and other props is that first and foremost, they are symbols. Which means they have the power that we give to them because they are physical objects used to represent ideas and qualities. In this regard they operate on a similar level to the concepts of validity of deities and such.

Symbols work by association, usually in a micro-to-macro sense. So for a symbol to work it has to have something real that it can be compared to in order to have a sense of validity and representation.

For example Quartz crystals are widely recognized as being widely versatile and 'programmable' , able to be made to serve nearly any metaphysical role you could want. to quantify this, quartz itself is physically used in a very wide range of functions. As windows, as protection, as a source of time and communication in clocks and radios, able to be adjusted to connect with a variety of electromagnetic frequencies and bands. It's vibrations are measured and counted to generate time. It is even Piezoelectric and generates its own energy by simply applying pressure. So as you can see there are a variety of real-world comparisons to draw from.

Likewise for variations of Quartz like Amethyst, which has a dose of iron into the mix (a cunductor metal), and gives it a violet color. Psychologically violet is a color that has a relaxing and calming effect, resulting in an easier release of tension and stress. Hence, Amethyst's association with release of tension and pain (tension is a big cause of pain) and promoting healing by conducting away (the copper) the things that inhibit health (stress and tension).

With every physical object there is a physically measurable quality that is reflective of their metaphysical representation. The comparison is not always complete or literal, but it is there. Moldovite is a stone associated with being a source of intense energy and change, and was created through a meteor impact. It has a unique quality to other tektites in that it is glass-like and green instead of opaque and black because of the minerals involved as well, adding to the mystique. Similarly, Fulgurite is a stone born of lightning, and forms in the shape of a small tunnel or crystallized hole. Diamond is a clear hard crystal formed from a black carbon through pressure and heat- comparable to purity and strength through trial. Obsidian and other black stones absorb energy. Black exists because it is a non-color that absorbs light. And so-on.

I would say that those who might claim crystals have no magical power, the youngsters are not wrong. Because they don't have power. They are just rocks. But as rocks they are powerful symbols, and symbols have strong magical power.

Well said Spirit75,
We are the makers of our own practices, so we are the deciders of what we like to use. None of it is actually necessary, the individual must decide their own way of doing things. Be it with no tools or with the entire Ceremonial Regalia.
Do as you wilt!

I notice we haven't gone farther than the UPG. I'll summarise your key point: Well you are on point the stones were eye catching (very 'perfect' for natural compounds/complexes). So the wavelengths of the transmitted light come into play? My example will be the simplest of them all. Say growing up I developed a hatred for a certain colour, The opposition party's traditional colour. How is a completely inorganic object going to change my hatred towards that particular colour? Back to the point I made about the UPG. Everyone can be right but then again everyone can be wrong. And likewise I think Oroboros acknowledges this. Also that the decision is of the individual.