Demon sealing

I have self respect i don't need any one elses. thanks for the offer though.

and also, thank you for the respect given to Darker and Gin, no matter what goes on in these forums, i am thankful for the coven community they have created, for it is insightful and intelligent.

Well, because of how long that post was... which was pretty long, and because of the fact that i am a bit tired, i wont respond to every little thing said. But there are things i will say, such as

THe whole idea about how long people were here and how old people are. This is a good point, i'll admit, but age and time doesn't always matter. Some of the oldest people can be fools for all we know, others may be stubborn and unwilling to accept things that may or may not be true, and some are indeed wise and know what they are talking about, but in essence, age doesn't matter. Also, i have been on this site for a long time, and though i have created several accounts for reasons which i wish to remain unknown, i do recall a bit about how this site was and how it changed through the while.

Now, to be clear about what i meant when i said ''I am told that i know nothing about the elf god and the realm of elves and dragons... then im sorry, but i cannot take that person, nor anyone else on the same site as serious.''
When i said this, it was not me saying that that person knows nothing because i do indeed know about some elf diety and some realm, it was me pointing out how foolish some people on this site are...

third, Yes i know the that book is one of several, but this one is the book that does speak of a certain kind of spirit, namely, the negative. now, while there are others that focus more on either seals, marks, and other spirits, this book mostly refers to what this forum is all about.

also, solomon may have been originally a jewsih figure, but guess where catholicism and christianity orginated from? You got it right, judaism. Therefore they also adopted MANY of the ideas, beliefs, and stories of judaism, the first 2/3 of the bible is from the torah. And if you read the Lesser key of solomon clearly it does have a

Thus, again with the truth, it can be proven, but at the moment, it is now know as to how we prove it. Truth is truth, and cannot be hidden when it governs everything, it is just a matter of looking in the right point of view.

SaidGuidence, thank you for the refrences on those books, i will try to read them one day.

Next on, let us look at the many aspects and differences between our world and the spiritual realm... One, we are physical, and Time can only exist in a physical sense, and why? Because, as solarn said, the spiritual world is one of energy, and energy does not experience time, nor death, nor life. Love... i admit wrong, maybe it does experience love, and ill admit wrong to pain as well, maybe it does experience pain, but death, life, and namely time cannot be an experience. Why? well, as i said, time can only exist through a physical sense, Likewise for death and life, for energy, no matter what form, shape, or power, cannot be created nor destroyed. this also goes with that nice little quote you put in there, since change, namely evolution, is only neccessary in a world that experiences time, and change is only allowable through time.

Also, i do not keep my "nose in a book" all the time, so you should not judge me either. though i sited a lot of refrences that show

if there is anything i missed, i will address it later

I didn't said the spiritual world is actually just ONE type of energy.When i meant by spiritual world.I meant by the whole universe.That,my friend is the real spiritual world.Its where you will feel enlightment and also find who you really are.

Hell and heaven are also just parts of that.
Time exists in all senses.Physical,ethereal,astral and in the universe itself.Only perceived time is in physical sense.Time itself is an infinity.1 second is like an infinity.Energy within it is actually just nothingness yet it is also everything.

And yes,the highest form of energy is actually formless unlike the physical body which is one of the lower ones.

I believe Said and Solarn have both made some very astute observations. I have had personal experiances with demons, and even once with an angel. I have known others whom have had experiances with both as well.

It has been my firsthand experiance that Demons have emotions. They will lash out at people, but look closely at the older summoning methods. Agrippa and solomon both suggest using magical torment upon them in the effort to force them to do what you want. Abramelin's book of "holy magic" also basicly says its ok to torture spirits if you get what you want.

Think of it this way: there are laws in physics we obey. Gravity for instance. Demons, Angels, entities and spirits (ect) have their Own set of rules to follow, based on the way their essences exist. When you hit a tuning fork it vibrates, when you use magic to contact a spirit you reach them.

Some spells rely on force and coersion, others rely on the being to accept what ammounts to an open invitation. From experiance and first hand accounts of summonings the former tends to go quite badly wrong most times. This is because they are alive, and they are extremely powerful beings.

The root word Daemon originated Much farther back then it has been given credit for. The greeks used it to mean Teacher or wise being, and I believe that was from an old sumerian word which also had wisdom and teaching associated with it.

As has been said many times, the vast majority of "demonic attacks" or negative influences are dark spirits, and the word "Demon" has mostly become an umbrella term for any dark spirit of a malicious nature. Which is rather discriminatory if you stop to think about it, its neither natural nor plausable to consider an entire race of beings would share the same mindset.

I do believe that once Demons did want us to learn from them and to help us grow spiritually. I also believe that centuries upon centuries of fear and propaganda has caused them to withdraw from humanity, enough that they rarely activly seek to teach without being approached. When you've existed for time immorial and have been hated or feared for a large portion of your existance (with corporal beings) you would begin to feel rejected or unwilling to help too.

As for the goetia, I believe they are partly serviators and partly formed from the subconcious expectations the summoner has. That they've existed for such a long time, it is possible they've gone beyond being simply *just* serviators, and prehaps have even gotten their own sentience by now. It happens with thoughtforms and serviators all the time really, eventually they absorb enough energy and emotion from others that they become self aware and basicly evolve.

Spirits in general have their own "life" and purposes. Just because we cannot fully comprehend their existance, does not give us the right to call them automatons. While not every being of energy has higher intellect (simple astral feeders are obvious examples) the ones that do are very obvious. The energy of a demon or angel is potent, and very old. Their intellect and power clearly shines through to anyone whom has encountered their presence, and their abilities to effect our world clearly shows that they not only have will and strength, But also possess restraint. If a demon can be summoned to cause havok, why not simply wipe humanity off the earth? The answer is simple, they have no desire to and that is not their purpose.

Being inhuman does not mean they are emotionless either, examples in "lower" animals clearly show that non humans can feel. Dogs can love and hate, so can monkeys and virtually any animal that isnt single celled or possessing a 3 second memory (although we cannot actually experiance the perspective of a goldfish, so what do i know there?)
Simply because they are made of energy doesnt exclude any spirit from emotions. As an example, the Angel of Death Azreal is a very sad and lonly entity. He understands the fears and pain of living beings very well, and mourns the fact that he and his "co-workers" are so terribly feared because they are associated with death.

I have never had a bad experiance with an actual demon or angel. I have heard first hand accounts of solomon style summonings that got out of hand, and the demon was extremely upset after to say the least. Respect is something that we, as humans, tend to withold from other beings and for something as trival as their Birth. We consider ourselves the only actual thinking beings, terrible hubris indeed.

Everything else aside, they are not capable of functioning within the realm of good or evil. Angel or Demon, Entity or Spirit, even human for that matter. Evil and good are perspectives, invented by humanity. The mind of an angel or demon is alien to us in many ways, because they are very different. How different does a mind have to be to survive thousands of years, to live through the rise and fall of civilisations? They can, and they do, because they are Not human. We need to reach upwards towards higher spheres of learning, and higher conciousness.

We need to seek enlightenment and spiritual clarity, then prehaps we can understand the motivations and minds of beings so ancient and unique.

As a final thought: many Many pagans/wiccans/ect believe the Universal energy has/is Love. Even more mainstream religions state that their deitys are Love. Why then, would such emotions be denied other spiritual creatures, if the Very Universe that birthed us All possesses it? Learn to astral project, taste the power of the Universe, and still say that humanity alone can love or hate.

The Sacred Book of Abramelin the Mage specifically states to treat the "princes and dukes and their servitors" with respect, never to let yourself become angry or use force except the force of the operators will granted by the conversation with the holy guardian angel. and if the princes and dukes become hostile or do not bow to the authority of the magus then one is to call upon the HGA and not engage in debate with the entities.

humility is something that is sorely lacking with some that frequent the threads here and it is disappointing. also the debate techniques employed are geared towards hearing ones own words as opposed to a forum of transfer and critical analysis of concepts.

i would like to point out the difference in tone and quality of flaggs post as compared to the rest, it is postured without ego, with specific citing and quotes. although i had to disagree about the Abramelin reference its only because i have JUST finished rereading the three books of sacred magic and it's concepts are fresh in my mind, and i believe(hope at least) this will be taken as a chance to evaluate his information and perhaps gain further understanding himself, as i do when someone grants me insight into my own flaws of theory.

also, i do not feel it necessary to prove what we all have or have not had experiences with, but the study of the various ceremonial traditions has been present in my life for close to 2 decades. i do have a bank of experience to draw from, but this is not poignant in a debate where the focus is learning unless it is proposed as personal experience(as flagg has done)and is allowed to be interpreted by the reader as such . i do not claim to have the definite answer as i have stated earlier, but i do propose that stating theories as fact based on other peoples experience is folly.that was the point of my interjection.

the statement that good and evil are paradigms placed by humanity is a very simple yet profound filter to place when talking about the nature of energy-type entities.i would go so far as to challenge us to consider this when speaking of love as well. in fact there are those(including physicists,psychologists, and metaphysicists) that posit the wave function applies to all things, including emotions and concepts of good and evil, so that the opposing extremes are actually varying degrees of the same thing. where could one say good ends and evil begins, or where love becomes hate?

as a supplement to the study of "demons" a study of jungian individuation is invaluable.

on another note, the "closing of the thread" because it is not to the tone that is liked by some is ridiculous and more offensive than anything else that was posted because it is detrimental to the evolution of ideas.

one thing that is present amongst many(not all) paths i have had the pleasure of crossing or traveling myself is the fact that one can only be assisted by the open minded and ego free teaching and learning process. by learning we are wrong it never hurts us, and by teaching someone that they may be wrong it is not to hurt them either, it only furthers the collective understanding of a subject and to a greater extent the understanding of the nature of "being".

It has been a long time since I have read through my copy of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin, and in my mind it had parallelled the prescribed force that other works on summoning state are routine and necessary. Rereading the book does validate exactly what you have said ArcaTuthus, and I apologise for the incorrect association I had made.

The book does recommend using harder means on occasion, but it does specificly state that "...absolute necessity in Occult working of being courteous, even to the evil spirits". It is this reference that I feel should be taken to heart, and in essence is the sum of why I had posted what I did. (page 38 does mention respecting a demon is the same as committing a mortal sin, which is the attitude I feel continues to feed into humanitys fear of the spirit world in general.)

I do believe that any entity with the strength to put forth change into the universe is also fully capable of reciving change from the universe, and thereby could not remain locked in a single mental paradigm. The most simple of thoughtforms can, over time, absorb enough from their surroundings to grow sentient and develop personality. To this effect beings of energy generations upon generations of age should have a vastly more complex emotional range then we do, experiance and age honing their cognative processess beyond many of our ability to understand. I freely admit I do not fully understand the minds of spirits, I simply have the insight of experiance and reactions of those whom I have had contact with. Not everyone will be as fortunate as I have been in contact with any spiritual being, but as long as we can work around the negative experiances in our lives we can continue to grow.

In our quest for knowledge in life, we sometimes allow our strengths or weaknessess to control the way we percieve the world. As ArcaTuthus stated there is no harm in being corrected, any opertunity to learn should be viewed as positive. I would like to specificly thank ArcaTuthus for the compliment, and look forward to seeing more intelligent discourse.

I don't believe in God or angels, but trust me, a demon has plenty of free will. They are nearly impossible to truly seal. Actually, I am looking for information on the demon named Sorano Kyunna. I have a seal containing a demon (whose name I am not going mention) inside of me. Note: Sorano is actually only a person with a demon sealed inside of her like be but we are considered demons.

And inside humans.

Well, it's nearly impossible to contain one in a object or a normal adult or child human but people can have a demon sealed into them at birth which usually kills them. If someone gets one inside of them after birth and they survive with their own free will then I would say that they are not normal. I don't how it could be easy but... well whatever this topics is what I've been looking for

Um.. I myself couldn't seal one but I do know demons can be sealed and that it either requires you risking your life and another's. In other words, If you fail then usually both the mage and the person to seal the demon inside are killed.