The Sacred Book of Abramelin the Mage specifically states to treat the "princes and dukes and their servitors" with respect, never to let yourself become angry or use force except the force of the operators will granted by the conversation with the holy guardian angel. and if the princes and dukes become hostile or do not bow to the authority of the magus then one is to call upon the HGA and not engage in debate with the entities.
humility is something that is sorely lacking with some that frequent the threads here and it is disappointing. also the debate techniques employed are geared towards hearing ones own words as opposed to a forum of transfer and critical analysis of concepts.
i would like to point out the difference in tone and quality of flaggs post as compared to the rest, it is postured without ego, with specific citing and quotes. although i had to disagree about the Abramelin reference its only because i have JUST finished rereading the three books of sacred magic and it's concepts are fresh in my mind, and i believe(hope at least) this will be taken as a chance to evaluate his information and perhaps gain further understanding himself, as i do when someone grants me insight into my own flaws of theory.
also, i do not feel it necessary to prove what we all have or have not had experiences with, but the study of the various ceremonial traditions has been present in my life for close to 2 decades. i do have a bank of experience to draw from, but this is not poignant in a debate where the focus is learning unless it is proposed as personal experience(as flagg has done)and is allowed to be interpreted by the reader as such . i do not claim to have the definite answer as i have stated earlier, but i do propose that stating theories as fact based on other peoples experience is folly.that was the point of my interjection.
the statement that good and evil are paradigms placed by humanity is a very simple yet profound filter to place when talking about the nature of energy-type entities.i would go so far as to challenge us to consider this when speaking of love as well. in fact there are those(including physicists,psychologists, and metaphysicists) that posit the wave function applies to all things, including emotions and concepts of good and evil, so that the opposing extremes are actually varying degrees of the same thing. where could one say good ends and evil begins, or where love becomes hate?
as a supplement to the study of "demons" a study of jungian individuation is invaluable.
on another note, the "closing of the thread" because it is not to the tone that is liked by some is ridiculous and more offensive than anything else that was posted because it is detrimental to the evolution of ideas.
one thing that is present amongst many(not all) paths i have had the pleasure of crossing or traveling myself is the fact that one can only be assisted by the open minded and ego free teaching and learning process. by learning we are wrong it never hurts us, and by teaching someone that they may be wrong it is not to hurt them either, it only furthers the collective understanding of a subject and to a greater extent the understanding of the nature of "being".
It has been a long time since I have read through my copy of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin, and in my mind it had parallelled the prescribed force that other works on summoning state are routine and necessary. Rereading the book does validate exactly what you have said ArcaTuthus, and I apologise for the incorrect association I had made.
The book does recommend using harder means on occasion, but it does specificly state that "...absolute necessity in Occult working of being courteous, even to the evil spirits". It is this reference that I feel should be taken to heart, and in essence is the sum of why I had posted what I did. (page 38 does mention respecting a demon is the same as committing a mortal sin, which is the attitude I feel continues to feed into humanitys fear of the spirit world in general.)
I do believe that any entity with the strength to put forth change into the universe is also fully capable of reciving change from the universe, and thereby could not remain locked in a single mental paradigm. The most simple of thoughtforms can, over time, absorb enough from their surroundings to grow sentient and develop personality. To this effect beings of energy generations upon generations of age should have a vastly more complex emotional range then we do, experiance and age honing their cognative processess beyond many of our ability to understand. I freely admit I do not fully understand the minds of spirits, I simply have the insight of experiance and reactions of those whom I have had contact with. Not everyone will be as fortunate as I have been in contact with any spiritual being, but as long as we can work around the negative experiances in our lives we can continue to grow.
In our quest for knowledge in life, we sometimes allow our strengths or weaknessess to control the way we percieve the world. As ArcaTuthus stated there is no harm in being corrected, any opertunity to learn should be viewed as positive. I would like to specificly thank ArcaTuthus for the compliment, and look forward to seeing more intelligent discourse.
I don't believe in God or angels, but trust me, a demon has plenty of free will. They are nearly impossible to truly seal. Actually, I am looking for information on the demon named Sorano Kyunna. I have a seal containing a demon (whose name I am not going mention) inside of me. Note: Sorano is actually only a person with a demon sealed inside of her like be but we are considered demons.
Well, it's nearly impossible to contain one in a object or a normal adult or child human but people can have a demon sealed into them at birth which usually kills them. If someone gets one inside of them after birth and they survive with their own free will then I would say that they are not normal. I don't how it could be easy but... well whatever this topics is what I've been looking for
Um.. I myself couldn't seal one but I do know demons can be sealed and that it either requires you risking your life and another's. In other words, If you fail then usually both the mage and the person to seal the demon inside are killed.
