My question is since when has witchcraft and magic(k) become an orthodox belief system that only adheres to certain irrefutable doctrines by so called "worthy authors"?
First off, sources in books and the internet are anything but reliable and shouldn't be followed to the T because someone says so. There are two things that I'm getting at with this, One being that these sources can help seeker by pointing them into the right direction but until they experience anything they know nothing. It's a matter of making it work for you through you own creativity and personalization. You truly have to make your path your own, because no matter what anyone says the journey towards ascension is your own path and not the collective wholes. Besides becoming a good researcher (armchair occultist) how can you have a clue on what it takes to ascend if you haven't died permanently? I'm willing to bet my life that no so called labeled path is right because of our history. We all know over the years different civilizations have conquered other civilizations with different belief systems. The losing civilization would be forced to change their beliefs, their deities would be demonized, and if they were to practice their old ways they would have to combine it with the new way so they wouldn't face execution.
With that being said looking at the chaotic mess of things we've made over the years and never being there ourselves how can we know what is true and what is real when it pertains to a magical system? Granted some people have an idea of what it takes in their own personal paths and that's where grimoires come into play. When I look at a grimoire I don't take it's word as God. These books are essentially someone's notes on the topic which describes what they had success with. Just because they're successful it doesn't mean that you will be following their method solely. Everybody's different and this is where I get into what really pisses me off.
I'm finding more and more people who are treating the craft or other systems that pertain to the occult as an orthodox system. Just because your an armchair occultist or a good researcher it doesn't mean that your entirely correct on your methods. Belief systems get mixed and matched, get over yourself. It happened in the past and it's going to continue to happen throughout the history of mankind. Your fear of change and lack of tolerance is the reason why I left Christianity. Your path isn't set in stone because you practice on certain holidays and you believe in an orthodox foundation. You only create your path through experience and what works for you. This also applies to magick. Just because it's done one way in an orthodox fashion it doesn't mean that the same results if not better can't be achieved in a different way by different means. If the driving force behind magick is intent, you can do literally anything you want in ritual. For instance an item that is used for uncrossing or protection can just as easily be assigned properties that deal with luck or health if you want to. Fetish items that pertain to this are very personal so the magician would more then likely want to get the most out of them charging them regularly with energies he or she would find useful to them. Nothing is set in stone because a certain person or belief says it is. The real problem is that people seem to never have an open mind to things anymore. In my opinion that is a real problem when it comes to personal growth as a magician. Knowledgeable is just a title, experience is the path towards ascension.
i agree this is the #1 reason i don't post or comment on many threads mostly because i don't personally believe in the 3 fold "law" or"rule" and also if the person that post is pretty closed off to ideas and suggestions and attack any ideas they don't like or believe in
I had to post this because I'm coming across to many people who have the orthodox mindset. This type of thinking is what made the Christians burn witches in the first place. People should put aside their pride and have an open mind instead of getting butt hurt over meaningless topics. It boils down to one thing and that is experience.
Re: Your Path v.s. Orthodoxy By: GoodyProctor / Novice
Post # 4 Sep 13, 2013
The topic in the chat last night was hoodoo, conjure, and Haitian Vodou. There s nothing wrong with taking ideas and thoughts from this tradition or religion, honestly it is done all the time, as long as you do not claim to follow it. If someone is not practicing the tradition the way it is set, they are not following the tradition, it is something else.
The topic was not good books on the subject of magic and following it to the T. It was about leaving a tradition pure, by not turning it into an eclectic mess and still claiming you're following the tradition. It is not hoodoo with the Goddess Isis. It not Hellenic Reconstruction if they're trying to establish eros with Jesus Christ and the flying spaghetti monster.
"Worthy authors" is the not the same as "credible author" or "reliable author" When the topic is Haitian Vodou, who do you think is more reliable? A person actually initiated to the highest degree as a Mambo, a priestess. Or someone who is a non-initiated? Books are expensive, very expensive. I want the bang for my buck. I want a book with reliable information.
Since when do we no longer ask ourselves "is the author or speaker reliable?" The information given to the person maybe skewed for whatever reason, whether or not the author is credible. Telling everyone not to judge whether the speaker and author is reliable is a step backwards.
Now, one could argue, how will you know the unreliable authors from the reliable without reading it all? While that is a good suggestion and it will teach the student to cross reference, think about the material itself, examine the authors works, etc. I would not suggest a book without reliable information to someone. Hyping up an author full of nonsense is like... it is like giving someone mayonnaise secretly in their muffin. I get all excited because I get a muffin, but I take a bite, and it is nothing but disgusting mayonnaise.
Traditions like conjure/hoodoo are oral and were passed down through out the years. There is a difference between "white washed internet hoodoo and oldstyle conjure." Yes, there is a set base to what is or is not hoodoo or conjure. Creativity is accepted, every worker has their own style to their work, but there is a strong immutable base laying at the core. No one is going to follow a recipe word for word, they are going to make it their own, but the basis will always be the unchangeable tradition.
There is no problem with working the way you want to work, but there is a problem if you go against the tradition. The chicken foot is what you were addressing in your rant. If you take a chicken foot and use it for luck, that is perfectly fine, but it is not traditional conjure. What is so wrong with not being apart of a tradition? I'm not saying what you did was wrong, I'm just saying it is not traditional.
People are more than free to be set on their own "path", but the problem is claiming something you are not. The nature of titles will very. Some people don't like to be labeled, others see labels as just labels. Being titled a witch means something, just like being titled a conjure work or spiritual worker means something. It means you are claiming a tradition you are practicing. Further more, there are many many many traditions out there that ONE has to meet your needs. It is arrogant to come into a tradition and change it to suit your needs.
Live your own path but do not call it what it is not.
I see your point and understand where your coming from. I never claimed to be apart of any tradition and I simply was talking about an item I purchased from an online vendor. I charged the item myself, adding things I wanted to it, and made it better. I don't see why changing the name of the original item would even be relevant when it's still essentially the same thing it was intended for? I think it's stupid to fight with someone about their possessions and what they do with it. I wasn't even trying to get into a debate over traditional uses for fetish items and I wasn't trying to change anything about whoever's traditions. I was just talking about myself. Either way this post isn't for that one occurrence in the chatter, it's my general opinion towards people. By the way The Spider and The Green Butterfly is a reliable source on the subject and if you want to debate that check out becomealivinggod.com. Koetting makes a fortune with his magick, what have you done with yours besides debating petty meaningless arguments about tradition.
Excellent post. To place anything in one strict path limits your potential to achieve the goals you want. All magick is personal and self exploration is mandatory! Finding yourself and your gifts is the whole point. That's why there are truly no teachers of the craft either. We are merely guides to help you on your path.
A very interesting topic for debate lostinspace. Personally I have no problem with anyone who wants to 'stick to the script' on the religion/ path of their choice. I do have a problem when practitioners try to superimpose their belief structure on others, the 3 fold law is consistently trotted out and proclaimed as 'a universal law' despite that fact that many of us choose not to adhere to/ recognise it's validity. Everyone must have the freedom to define their own ethical guidelines!
As an eclectic witch I will take what works from different paths and adapt, change, combine and substitute things where necessary in the spirit of experimentation. This is my personal choice and I enjoy the flexibility it offers me. Just because I sometimes choose to Internet ideas/ concepts in my own way doesn't make them wrong.
Agreed. I feel that an orthodox approach towards things will work for most people because it's simple and doesn't require to much thinking or exploration. You see this a lot in Christians. Whenever your in a debate with one of them and their ideas are being challenged they revert back to their book spewing out scripture without a conscious clue about what they're saying. Just because you say something is true it doesn't mean that it can't be challenged. For all we know we are all wrong and mislead. Science can debunk most of the phenomena that is experienced in any magical system and for that matter I haven't seen a witch including myself go out of their way to prove science wrong. The truth is all we can do is trust in ourselves and our own personal experiences. Nothing is right, until you go out and experience it for yourself.
