Has anyone else noticed that on some of the "reputable" sites some people there really seem to have no clue about anything? I was on witchvox earlier, and noticed a "coven" in my area that practiced "Elven" magick. Not that I don't love Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit movies, or Skyrim for that matter~ but, seriously? Do they not have the ability to distinguish real from fantasy? Seems like they should really be going to Ren fairs or comic-cons instead. I am still chuckling about it.
It was actually found on Google when I typed in "Covens in Oregon", after clicking around to see what was happening in my area, which then landed me on Witchvox. I was doing a little research to find local minded people to correspond with. Actually quite a few folks here into the Craft :)
The alfr (Norse) and fae (Irish) are still believed in just as much as anything else. In the Norse mythologies, the elves, giants and dwarves have their own worlds as well as the gods. The alfr were to be feared, even after Christianity took over! Der Grossman was quite a frightening figure, said to still be seen in the Black Forest of Germany. So even after religion changed, the elves were still experienced! They are now commonly called "nature spirits" and "house spirits" of folk legend.
Are you going to giggle at giants too? I really don't find that a wise decision! They are the titans of the Greeks, the elohim of the Hebrews, the primordial ones that are generally quite cold, calculating, and brutal. Very big with raw power like no other.
I would suggest learning a bit about your fellow pagan religions before judging. Just because something is used in fantasy and fiction, doesn't mean it is not based off of something that is religiously and spiritually regarded as sacred.
Thor is a Marvel comic too, but he is also a very prominent, very real deity. Are you going to laugh at my daughter for wearing a mjolnir and praying to Thor because it's a Marvel comic and Avenger movie character? Many believe we do not control who or what we connect with. Like attracts like and we naturally are pulled to what best fits our personality and life path.
And Renaissance Fairs are based on the historical time period of the Renaissance. Again, quite far from fiction.
I am intrigued by your comments Whiteraven, could it be possible that the Elves of the Norse tradition are somehow related to the angels of the Jewish tradition? (Different names, same process). I am also assuming they do not resemble anything like the films portray them....
As for the giants being the Elohim, surely the beni-elohim would be a better fit? Elohim translates as dual-gendered god, or gods and goddesses. The beni-elohim are the sons of the god and goddess- much like the titans came from the primordial gods and were described as giants. Also called the Nephilim I believe.
I actually believe some of the titans are not evil for example Prometheus and possibly Hecate. Is this the case with giants in your tradition?
I'm sorry for the questions, I have not read much into the Norse tradition as I've never known where to start, but the bits I do know of the mythos fascinates me.
The Titans aren't giants, the Gigantes are giants. The Titans are the children of the Protogenoi, who they overthrew and ruled before the Olympian Gods overthew them. Most specifically they are; Okeanus, Tethys, Hyperion, Theia, Koeus, Phoebe, Kronos, Rhea, Mnemosyne, Themis, Krius and Iapetus. Their children also get called Titans and are still Gods, not giants. The Titans do have giants as siblings; the Kyklopes and Hekatonkheires, and in Thracian mythology Titans are described as a tribe of primitive giants, but basically, Titans are Gods, not giants.
I love finding the links between beliefs around the world. :)
About giants and the like.
The bene elohim were "sons of god/power" or the counsel of the gods, while the elohim come from "el" meaning purely "god/power". I only use it because I cannot find anything before elohim. They did, after all create light, space (heavens), and earth according to the Torah.
Before that was darkness. Much like the chaos before order in every other creation story. Now of course, translation aside, and only looking at the big picture of hierarchy and linear story lines, it resembles the story of primordial beings (call them what you will) succeeded by their children.
I compare the Giants of the Norse with the Titans and Elohim due to the story comparisons not specific descriptions/characteristics because in my experience, spiritual reality is very much reliant on perspective, and differences in culture/sociology are generally huge, especially when comparing myths with such distance geographically.
In translating Elohim as plural and the ones that began the creation of existence, they are primordial. Then along came Yahweh who specifically created the Garden of Eden. Yahweh historically/theologically was the son of El, and a thunder god, much like Zeus of the Greeks was the son of Cronus (primordial boss of the Golden Age). Albeit, before Cronus there was yet another generation, but history still repeats itself as it does with every myth of the fight between male powers. However, that is another discussion. Let's just say, the Greeks have a longer time line than most. :p
Ymir (a frost giant/creator) was succeeded by Odin. Then those that took over (led by Odin) created and shaped humans much like Yahweh. The Greeks were content in not explaining how they came about, or they just couldn't agree with one story.
Onto angels.
In the Phoenician myth, the famous "Thoth" himself writes that Cronus had four wings, and those that flew beneath him had two.
Egyptian and Sumerian art equally depicts deities with wings on their back, particularly the Queen of Heaven from each, Isis and Inanna respectively.
The peri of the Persians are decended from fallen angels and not allowed in heaven, the piri of Islam (benevolent djinn), and of course, then you have the fairy.
The fairies of Ireland can be traced back to the Tuatha De Danann aka tribe of Danu (Danu = mother of the gods). This tribe included the pagan gods of Ireland. But then, there was a war both physically and mythologically, a war lost. And when that war was lost, the tribe along with the gods were driven away (Christianity came) and they became the sidhe (people of the hills) and as time went by they were known as nothing more than the feared fair folk, the fae or faerie/fairies. Many know the sidhe ("shee") only by the dreaded Beansidhe better known as the "banshee". So the gods of Ireland and all below them were slowly degraded into a Tinkerbell and Legolas personification instead of the very powerful rulers over nature they were once honored and worshiped for.
All fae are not deities, just like angels all have their different levels of power. That's why the deities were commonly titled "Queen" or "Lord" of, to show the rank. I believe it is Kabbalah that says that there is an angel in every grain of sand. So basically, animism in the form of angels. Nature spirits vs angelology. Are they one in the same? I like to think so.
Scholars have noted that Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and "Norse" culture did a lot of borrowing from one another. So a lot of it crosses over. But when such ties are formed all over (and I could go into far more cultures if I wanted to), a universal truth begins to show up.
All of these myths share a heavy consideration with birds and flight. Sometimes they meld, as with Freya and her cloak of feathers, Morrigan and her ability to fly over battlefields. The Valkyries. Certain fae described with various types of wings.
So to me this doesn't mean that they are separate from the Hebrew idea of angels but merely that perspective of them is altered. The basic idea holds but the details are skewed.
It's like watching a movie with the mute button active and trying to decide what's going on. These ancient people saw things they couldn't comprehend, so they tried to explain them as best they could. As time went on, those explanations grew and became more detailed. Now there are expectations in the appearance of these beings and our minds tend to color our perception of them more than we are willing to admit.
That was a fascinating read. I too like to find were mythologies are similar rather than different.
I know the titans are said to be not so nice, whereas I like to think of the elohim as benevolent, however it matters not.
Angels are very much so nature spirits related to the elememts and planets etc. I am very much so into qabalah and it is good to see how the angel names are formulas. They function in specific areas whereas the godshave more of a personality and freedom in their characteristics.
